Geert Wilders Fitna Farce
Originally appearing at Guardian Unlimited
I just watched Dutch right-winger, Geert Wilders’ film, Fitna, The Movie. He had promised it to be too shocking, too frightening, too disturbing and much of the world was holding its breath in morbid, anxious, wait for its release. The media feared rabid violence by those Muslims.
My initial reaction is a yawn. I blame production. The soundtrack is Tchaikovsky’s mellow classical piece called “Arab Dance.” Quick tip to future demagogues: when trying to incite riots, try not to use musical pieces that are based on Georgian lullabies. Quick tip to future Islamophobes: when trying to demonize Islam, try not to use elements of Western culture that are inspired by Arabs and Muslims as that reveals that Muslims have contributed positively to the world.
Anyone who has seen terrorist propaganda films is familiar with most of the scenes and most of the disgusting conflations of the Quran with acts of violence, murder, kidnapping and anti-semitism. Such behavior has been condemned resoundingly among Muslims. Those that use the Quran for illegitimate and criminal ends should be punished by the fullest extent of the law.
What I’m really wondering: is Wilders’ protesting against Islam or the monopoly extremists already have over grainy, low-budget, youtube videos? The only difference I see is that Wilders plays the best of Western classical music — an insult to the legacy of Grieg and Tchaikovsky — than death chants. I guess the thing he can be credited with is upping the sound quality. Also the transubstantiation of “Fitna” into “Fin” at the end was pretty cool.
The rest of the film is a mixture of conflating the most painful and heart-wrenching images from terror-strikes with extremist imams, in an effort to turn the entirety of Islam into a demonic edifice. This is neither new, nor interesting. It is a facile trick for facile minds. Cartoons show more a more subtle grasp of the human condition. Focusing in more specifically, the film appears to be nothing more than a screed by a nativist. Anti-immigrant demagogues exist in every society, from Arab to American. Their sole job is to belittle and antagonize the mostly poor immigrants and stultify and romanticize their country’s own history.
One of the things the film did was to try and link some of the verses of the Quran to acts of violence. Most people familiar with the Quran, including Christian polemicists I’ve debated, accept that you can have the Quran say pretty much whatever you want. For example, there is among Muslims, a pretty hefty industry of “scientists” who are constantly “proving’ that various Quranic verses predicted the marvels of modern science. I once saw a presentation by one of these guys. It was, in a way, very similar to what Wilders has done. First there would be a slide with a Quranic verse. Then there would be a bunch of images of some modern scientific marvel. Apparently, everything from the space-time continuum, modern meteorology and congenital biology are supported by verses from the Quran. Like I said, when put into the hands of fanatics and fools, the Quran — like any book of religious scripture — can say anything. If suicide bombers wanted, they could even go into the Old Testament, cite to Sampson, and justify their heinous acts.
What the film really shows to me is that Wilders doesn’t know the difference between Islam and Islamism — and when it comes to the latter he is completely lost. This is his major attack against Islamism? He reminds me of those socially awkward, marginalized, introverted children in a school-yard whose solution to persecution at the hands of a bully is to write the bully’s name in his notebook and then rip up the page.
If Wilders really wanted to expose Islamism — the entire legacy of 20th century ideological Islam — he would start with how the French Suez Canal Company funded the Muslim Brotherhood’s first mosque. That fact is casually mentioned in Hasan al-Banna’s autobiography (which I am certain Wilders bothered to consult). Or Wilders would have tried to begin some criminal proceeding in the international criminal courts against those men who came up with the genius idea of encouraging disaffected Arab youth into going into Afghanistan and then gave them $1 billion in machine guns, bombs and stinger missiles to play with. Or Wilders could have expressed some outrage over the drafters of the new Iraqi constitution — drafted in consultation with Western lawyers — which makes Sharia the law of the land (a fact bemoaned by Iraqi feminists). Had he bothered to show some serious thinking he would have even found support among the millions of Muslims around the world who oppose Islamists.
But Wilders isn’t actually serious about challenging Islamism. He is concerned only about multiplying the number of times his name is pinged on Google. Couldn’t he have taken solace in the fact that his name is pinged more than mine?
I can’t be sure how the Islamist demagogues will spin this film. Presumably some of them will consider this a kind of frontal assault against their idiocy — idiots recognize one another — and begin agitations which the media will be too happy to cover. However, the fact is, a majority of Muslims are going to react to this film with the same kind of casual shrug of the shoulders that it deserves. If there are Muslims who wish to protest — and I really don’t see why its even necessary — my advice for them is to emulate Hossein Nouri. He is the paraplegic painter who, during the Danish Cartoon Fiasco, painted a portrait of the Virgin Mary in front of the Danish embassy. Here is a picture of his marvelous work.
In terms of sheer originality, though, the best response to this film came from a friend of mine who watched the film — and calling it a film is to abuse both the English language and the legacy of cinema — on my computer with me.
“I could have masturbated in that time.”
Geert Wilders. That is one pumpkin-headed mofo.
Looks like he dyes his hair ultra yellow blond to keep his master-race image points up?
Anyone that runs on the anti-immigrant platform has got to be a least a bit of an Ahole. It seems like a lot of his “own people” don’t care much for him.
Since I did react with a casual shrug this morning when I saw the video, I guess I fall under the majority of Muslims :-) Which was funny because I discovered the video when randomly browsing a crazy conservative blog that was referring to Islam as the “religion of perpetual outrage” or something like that. I had a hearty breakfast, but was still hungry for said outrage…
Despite the shrug, I think the material presented may be worthy of some analysis (if only as a diagnosis of Islamophobia). The film seems to me primarily a work of reactionary Dutch nativism. See, for instance, the bar chart showing stats of the Muslim population in the Netherlands. Followed by a montage of pictures depicting what will supposedly happen when Muslim take over their country: gay teenagers hanged in Iran, female genital mutilation, etc, etc.
Great commentary. He’s just a publicity-seeking oaf. Did anyone really expect anything thought-provoking out of this? I just hope no one plays into his hands.
That’s a priceless picture.
Makes the tip of his nose look like the bullseye for a big juicy rotten tomato.
He’s just an attention whore. It’s easy for him to spout out that garbage while Dutch troops in Afghanistan suffer the brunt of it all.
He’s unpatriotic, in that sense then.
This is hilarious:
“He reminds me of those socially awkward, marginalized, introverted children in a school-yard whose solution to persecution at the hands of a bully is to write the bully’s name in his notebook and then rip up the page.”
I just feel sad for him now. Bechara went through all that effort and all we do is mock. Poor pouty lil idiot.
I think it shows that the Koran is a racist book and it explains why many Muslims are filled with such bloodlust and incapacity to get along with non-Muslims and even each other. Iraq makes Ireland look like a tea party. Muslims have some explaining to do.
You can dismiss it but non-Muslims won’t. I think it was a thoughtful commentary about a problem which you Muslims seem to be in deep denial about. Wake up, and explain why there is so much violence from Muslims.
uh….thankyaverymuch.
I thought Elvis was dead?
No, but Jihad Watch killed his brain.
Hijabs, I guess you are muslim given your strong opinion about this jubject between the lines. It is just a great movie that will make you remember all the events in the recent past related to religion. Religion is dangerous and has the potential to kill democracy… but maybe most of the people do not not care just like the persons on this forum.
I will always care for freedom in my heart, for women’s rights to vote, homosexual right to marry and variety of opinions. But if others do not care, I will not care to make them suffer, and I will be imam to rule them :-)
Han, I guess you are foreign given your butchery of the English language. Stupidity is dangerous and has the potential to kill democracy.
Han, atheism can kill just as much as religion. Stalin ring a bell?
Watching these films are painful because these elements of Muslim psychopaths actually exist and actually use the Qur’an to justify their evil and bloodlust
Watching ALL psychopaths who kill in the name of something: Islam, Christianity, Xenophobia, Racial Hatred, etc. is painful.
So go get bent you sicko.
True Tariq, but it’s no different than the LRA in Uganda using the Bible to justify their atrocities. Ditto with the Jewish settlers drunken off of Talmudic teachings.
Yet Geert Wilders will never call for banning the Old Testament or the Talmud, does he?
Or don’t forget the antics of Shiv Sena and the RSS that attack Christians in the state of Orissa, especially when they attacked 17 churches on Christmas Eve.
Again, why not call for the banning of Hindu texts then, if indeed it causes intolerance for India’s minorities?
Buzz Kill, chill bro. Tariq is not deserving of hostility. He gets a lot of flack from fellow Muslims for being a realist in his outlook on the Muslim community.
Typical to not take responsiblity for the crazy teachings that lay in the Koran waiting for anyone who believes enough to carry them out.
Why should any other religions matter.. when it’s this one that is creating so much violence in the world. You look silly when you try to say “well everyone else does it too”. No , not everyone else does.
I think your criticism is misplaced. You should be attacking your fellow Muslims for using the Koran to advocate murder instead of attacking us Non-Muslims for calling attention to it.
Tariq is not deserving of hostility.
If he doesn’t deserve the hostility then why do you have to remind him of all the additional idiots in the world?
I am sick of people who single out one group of imbeciles to prop their agenda. I am sick of neocons, sick of Bush. Sick of all.
If Tariq Nelson is not one of these, IF, apologies.
You should be a little more complete in your statements Tariq.
Like Vince for example. On cue.
Hi Vince. Thanks for making the case.
The music is “Aase’s Death” by Grieg. Did you see the film at all?
“If he doesn’t deserve the hostility then why do you have to remind him of all the additional idiots in the world?”
Because he is solely focused on how some misguided Muslims are shaping the world’s opinion on Islam, and for that I cannot be hostile to him, but remind him respectfully that other groups are not immune from this.
I don’t think anything Tariq said gave any indication whatsoever that he wouldn’t condemn other psychopaths, maybe it’s just particularly upsetting to him as a Muslim to see a book he believes in (the Qur’an) be used to such ends? And anyway the original topic was Wilders’ film which would naturally lead to a discussion of the things contained therein.
As for Danial’s point about Wilders’ blatant double standards - well, duh (I agree though). He’s a total loony who probably just hates Muslims because they look different from him. The second he called for a banning of the Qur’an is the second people should have completely tuned him out. http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/khaled_diab/2008/03/hell_hath_more_fury.html This piece sums up his rank hypocrisy quite nicely.
Does Tariq contend that other groups are immune from this, Danial? In that case he deserves to be ‘respectfully reminded’ otherwise. If not then his intelligence shouldn’t be insulted. To me it looked like a simple case of elaborating on the original subject of the post.
It really does no good as a Islamophobe, a conservative or a Muslim to single a party out and talk about their “bloodlusts.”
Such talk is begging for it.
Anyone who wants to solve such a problem has to see the common good in good people and the common bad in bad people and see if they can find the problem not in Islam but in human nature.
If Tariq Nelson does not get THAT, what hope is there for him. Pick another subject Tariq and stop feeding the Islamophobes.
Wilders does not consider Islam a religion. He thinks it is a fascist ideology…
“Does Tariq contend that other groups are immune from this, Danial?”
No no no. I think some confusion can be evident from what I said before. I am not accusing Tariq of focusing solely on a specific group.
Check his blog, he makes a lot of good points that others do not have the courage to do so.
If anything, I agree with his views more than I disagree.
[...] وبلاگ نویس مسلمان علی اعتراض در مورد فیلم “ضد اسلامی” فتنه نوشت: [...]
Eduard.
Did YOU see the film at all? The music is listed at the end. Grieg is beginning, Tchaikovsky is the end.
I didn’t watch the end - maybe you are right.
“Wilders does not consider Islam a religion. He thinks it is a fascist ideology…”
The fact that he can’t distinguish between Islam and fascism pretty much says all that needs to be said about Mr. Wilders and his views on such things. Utter dolt. I just visited the BBC homepage and needless to say a story about his film is one of the most prominent headlines, along with a profile of the man himself. He must be beside himself with joy.
“I didn’t watch the end - maybe you are right”
Glad you admit that you are lacking in cranial matter.
Tariq Nelson is commenting on the state of Muslims…as a Muslim, it hurts him (and me, and many others) that some use Islam in the name of violence. I don’t feel as though he should be attacked for that. The fact that he didn’t mention other acts of violence in religion…it’s kind of like Vince said (oh my God, I agree with him), what good does pointing out violence done in the name of other religions when discussing violence that Muslims commit? The topic of the post was this movie, which happened to be about this douchebag’s quest to prove that Islam is inherently violent…so I’m with Jessica that Tariq was continuing a discussion of the original topic, which up until that point did not contain any comments regarding violence in any other religion.
So what, now every time we discuss a topic on this blog, we have to do a comparative study between Muslims and the rest of the world? In the past few weeks on this blog, its been “well Muslims do this and Christians do that, Muslims believe this and Christians believe that”…and I’ve certainly engaged in some of that…but what purpose does it really serve for solving problems that we as a Muslim community have, which is something that Ali seems to be committed to and most of us Muslims posting on the blog are committed to?
“I didn’t watch the end - maybe you are right.”
I know. The film *was* that bad. I wouldn’t have made it through were it not for fact that I would encounter people like you.
By the way, I didn’t say this earlier.
PWNED!
lol.
My point is simple and I’ll offer the rare apology to all involved if it helps….
Islam is not the problem here so saying “Tariq Nelson is commenting on the state of Muslims…as a Muslim, it hurts him (and me, and many others) that some use Islam in the name of violence….” is actually not, IMO, the point.
Whatever your ideological excuse is, being horrible to your fellow human beings and killing them is usually not a result of:
The Qur’an
Islam
The Prophet Mohammad
America
Republicanism
Liberty
Capitalism
Zionism
What-have-you
It is a common pathology that WE ALL share.
So framing it as a Muslim issue is precisely the problem.
Ali made this point about Muslims and Facists and it is a good one to remember.
There are Muslim that also happen to be facists.
They are not facists BECAUSE they are Muslims.
So why speak about it that way?
The problems are separate.
So why speak about the Muslim-Facist problem unless you want to deceive people about the problem….which is facism, not Islam. ‘
Same goes for violent jihadis.
I hope that makes the point clear.
Fascism, not facism.
Facism is a whole nother issue.
This was a very good commentary.
This guy is totally racist, and Ali has it put it very precisely.
I found this quite interesting:
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/03/arrest_for_discrimination_at_a.php
Whatever your ideological excuse is, being horrible to your fellow human beings and killing them is usually not a result of:
The Qur’an
Islam
The Prophet Mohammad
—————————————–
Right, it’s not a result of these as long as you ignore:
* The 4 schools of Sunni jurisprudence
* 40,000 (40,000?!) imams in Saudi Arabia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7308040.stm)
* Majid Khadduri (http://books.google.com/books?id=UHWd6gLZsFIC&pg=PA51&sig=d8tlLfSw1wSW0mmV8cnNIbTXGvk)
But other than those, you’re absolutely right.
Antidhimmi, you should change your screen name to AntiAntiDummy.
Anti:
Actually, Muslims have five recognized schools at the moment. Are you saying the fifth one is OK, oh you great interpreter of Islamic jurisprudence.
Here are 20,000 Indian imams decrying terrorism and violence:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ali_eteraz/2008/02/clerics_against_terrorism.html
Majid who?
I see a few Muslims who think that folks like myself made a random decision sometime in the past to suddenly dislike or hate Muslims. I can assure you folks that no, that isn’t the case.
It’s taken a long time for some of us to form our current opinion about the state of Islam today and how certain Muslims behave in light of current trends within Islam.
I was born in 74, so the 1980s is my childhood memory time. And what do I remember from those days? “Death to America” from Iran. Hostages in Lebanon. The PLO on a plane hijacking spree. I dont remember anyone ever discussing these things in the context of Islam or Muslims in general. All of it was cast in a political paradigm. Iran was Anti-US. Lebanon was in a Civl War. The PLO was against Israeli occupation.
The 1993 bombing of the WTC was quickly forgotten. All through the 90s there was no conscienceness that a systemic movement was sweeping the world.
For me personally it wasn’t until the twin embassy bombings in 98 that I decided to look more closely into just what the heck was going on. That meant reading about Osama, what his beef was, what framework was he working with.
So for me it was then I began to see within Islam the commands for Jihad, the command for Muslims not to befriend Non-Muslims, dhimitude and all the rest. Then I read about the NAZI Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Bana’s reformation of jihad, taqfir. I found about twelvers and wahabbis and the group in Pakistan Debosomething.
Now, I ask you Muslims.. what do you think people like me are supposed to think? Yes we all know that the vast majority of Muslims aren’t hostile yadda yadda yadda but there’s plenty of Muslims who consider themselves to be Muslims who profess to believe in Jihad.
And yes we all know that no nation/people is perfect but that’s not the point… this isn’t about saying Muslims are at the bottom of the all that is wrong. Nope. But despite whatever else is going on.. so is Jihad. For 1,400 years now. Many of us consider the West’s biggest mistake in history ever was to allow Muslim immigration. And the stuff I cited above is the reason why. It’s because of the actions of some Muslims and we dont see any restraint being demanded by other Muslims.
And let me assure you, the quickest way Muslims alienate Non-Muslims is when Muslims , upon hearing criticism from Non-Muslims, decide to attack the complainers with nonsense terms like “Islamophobes”. We are not bigots. We are reacting to the reality we see all around us. If it werent for the violence being done in Allah’s name then there would be no “Islamophobia”.
Islam should disappear as did Communism and Nazism.
Keep dreaming Everyman. Islam and Muslims are here to stay, so keep crying little girl.
Fine, I see where you’re coming from.
But look at any of the things you just mentioned…you yourself said that your opinions have changed over time in response to what Muslims have been doing.
Turn it around and look at what Muslims in the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia have gone through, much of it at the hands of the West. Just as your feelings are reactionary, so are theirs. Years and years of basically getting crapped on by the British, the US, the Dutch, the French, etc, etc…and then you act surprised that a sizable proportion of Muslims hate the Western world.
For these people, religion is their rallying call. A group of people who would otherwise have nothing going for them. This is the monster that the West, through colonialism and exploitation, created. Religion has been used by every group throughout history to rally its followers in response to oppression…Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Jews…we’re going through a time where Muslims feel oppressed and nothing else seems to be working for them.
Is it wrong? Yes. But don’t sit here and act surprised about it, as if America, Britain, and the other Western powers had nothing to do with it. There are other religions which could be considered inherently violent. Imams and shaykhs of these oppressed groups of people are just playing up the violent parts of this particular religion to rally their supporters around a cause. Like you said, it’s reactionary…
“We are reacting to the reality we see all around us…”
Vince, this is the problem. You react to what the media portrays as “all things Muslim” (all violence all the time), the Muslims react to your reaction, and round and round we go. There is no attempt to understand the other’s situation. Criminal acts perpetrated by Muslims is a genuine problem, one which the Muslim community itself recognizes and is trying to combat. For NonMuslims like yourself to paint us all with a broad brush is counterproductive.
I wont call you an Islamophobe if you want to be a part of the solution, rather than a distraction for the majority of the Muslims who are trying to address the problem. By the same token, those of us who try to tell you that Islam (with a capital “I”) is not the problem should not be considered apologists.
But Nattuk Muslims aren’t attacking only the West. There’s Jihad warfare all throughout Africa, within some Muslim countries, against India, against Thailand, against the Phillipines.. plus the ideologicaly framework for this new jihad was laid way back with the forming of the Muslim Brotherhood and probaly even before that. A whole infrastructure had to be developed and it took generations.
Plus if one looks at history and the attacks by Muslims against Non-Muslims..those attacks aren’t explained by the self-defense notion.
I’m sorry, but I but see this movement as being inevitible. And I see the “Blame the West for everything” as nothing but a pretext.
A posted before a list of things that the US had done to the benefit of Muslims, no other nation has done as much for Muslims.. even if there were ulterior motives (which there always are in international relations).
Back in the late 1700s when the US became free from the UK, the Muslim states of North Africa began to take US saliors as slaves and seized US shipping as booty.
Jefferson met with the ambassader from Tripoli in London and asked why the Muslim states are doing this, this is from the report that Jefferson sent back to Congress:
“[I]t was …written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their [the Muslims'] authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could be found, and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Is the ambassaor’s understanding of his Islamic religion wrong?
Vince, do you forget the fact that Morocco was the first nation in the world to recognize America’s independence on December 20th, 1777?
Do you forget the fact that the Barbary States do not represent Islam no more than the conquistadores represent Catholicism?
“But Nattuk Muslims aren’t attacking only the West. There’s Jihad warfare all throughout Africa, within some Muslim countries, against India, against Thailand, against the Phillipines..”
Gee, have you ever bothered to see WHY they are doing this other than the preconceived notion of “world conquest”. I don’t think you acknowledge the fact that oppression tends to breed resistance.
The Muslims of Thailand had their land annexed to Thailand, the Muslims in southern Phillipines feel discriminated and left out by the Catholic majority, and Indian Muslims represent the bottom of the barrel in India, and you still think that Muslims in those countries are doing it for the sake of conquest???
Give me a break.
And let’s be perfectly honest here Vince…would anyone in the West really give a shit about Muslims or jihad or anything if Muslims didn’t somehow threaten their interests? If most of the oil in the world didn’t lie beneath the Arab peninsula? If Pakistan didn’t have nuclear weapons? If Israel wasn’t located in the Middle East, but rather in the middle of the European Union? If Muslims were just minding their own business, killing each other with spears and swords in the middle of Africa somewhere, would the US even care? Hell, it’s happening in Darfur, but who in America gives a shit about Darfur? Why not send some troops there and fix the problems Sudan has? Is that any less of a humanitarian crisis than Iraq is?
No, it’s not entirely the West’s fault. But they sure as hell didn’t help.
when i think of biblical verses which could be distorted ot justify suicide bombing my “favorite” is “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13)
Vince your long explanation contains the notion that Islam is what Muslims do. I think that makes you not an Islamophobe but simply someone who wishes to judge one type of Muslims — like say the ones on this blog — with another group — like the extremists.
I don’t know what the term for that is. I tend to think that is essentialism, but that is too nerdy. Stereotyping comes to mind. Bigotry if you become abusive.
“Islam is what Muslims do”
Uh…isn’t that the definition of “Muslim”? Did you mean terrorism or jihad?
“when i think of biblical verses which could be distorted ot justify suicide bombing my “favorite” is “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13)”
I bet the SSNP used that verse prior to blowing themselves up during the Lebanese Civil War, and the ironic thing? They were Greek Orthodox Christians who wanted a “Greater Syria”.
The irony.
Ali writes,
Here are 20,000 Indian imams decrying terrorism and violence:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ali_eteraz/2008/02/clerics_against_terrorism.html
——————————
You’re kidding, right?
Have you read the actual declaration? It’s here: http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD185608
This is a good sign?
In the declaration: “Islam has given so much importance to human beings that it regards the killing of a single person [as] the killing [of] the entire humanity.” We all know this comes from 5.32 Qur’an, but they conveniently left out 5.33. This smacks of dissimulation, and I assume you know it. I haven’t seen you ever trot out 5.32, thankfully.
It goes on: “Their aggression, barbarism and state-sponsored terrorism - not only in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, but also in Bosnia and various South American countries - have surpassed all records known to human history. Our great nation, [on the other hand], has always been known for impartiality and [for] its moral and spiritual values.”
I see, so the terrorism they’re condemning is the terrorism committed by Israel. Of course.
And Majid who, you ask? You can read a bit here: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0796/9607023.htm
A real Islamophobe, Majid was. And probably a secret Zionist neocon too.
Here’s what he wrote on the first page of his 1955 book, War and Peace in the Law of Islam: “Islam, emerging in the seventh century as a conquering nation with world domination as its ultimate aim, refused to recognize legal systems other than its own.” He also wrote, “The Islamic state sought to establish Islam as the dominant reigning ideology over the entire world. It refused to recognize the coexistence of non-Muslim communities, except perhaps as subordinate entities.”
For Buzz Kill to say that the Qur’an, Islam, and Muhammad have nothing to do with “being horrible to your fellow human beings and killing them,” that perspective is naive, deceitful, or both.
And finally, I wrote 4 schools of *Sunni* jurisprudence. If you’re talking about Jaferi as the fifth (or maybe Zaydi?), or perhaps you mean Ibadi or Thahiri? Regardless, throw them in too.
But at least we’ve got a bunch of Indian Muslims out there condemning Israeli terror; we should all feel much better.
whats funny is that i used to have campains at ottawa university against these muslim tachings and all… i used to be a christian preacher..but after converting to islam i became an imam.. And after i saw his fitna film i would say 2 things: 1.every single verse he stated was out of context because every one deals with wars on the days of the prophets and even the insults of the jews is sooo stupid and shows lack of knowledge lol … i feel pity towards those who will fall for it loool. 2. there is a difference between extreme muslims who will also misunderstand the quran and then will make us look bad by preaching hatred and so on…
if we are ignorant not to do homework then its our problem.
if i am ignorant i would say that the Bible has terror idiologies (i know the bible and the quran inside out)..and a lot of porn (ezikeeeel) and so on and so forth.
an amazing average of 4-6 people come to my office monthly to declare their conversion to islam…what? are they terrorists2? welcome to tha club babe loool.
I hate to out-nerdify you but wouldn’t defining Islam as “what Muslims do” be an extreme kind of existentialism rather than essentialism?
I hate it whenever people skew history so badly.
Just from 2 examples
The NAZI Mufti: The fact that you associate this one man as being indicative with all of Islam shows how prejudiced you are. If you are going to indict all Palestinians much less Muslims with this figure than you might as well just indict the whole Indian Independence movement b/c Netaji (read him up) also collaborated with the Nazis and there was an Indian SS unit as well. Indict the Catholic Croats while your at it too.
However, forget the hundreds of thousands of Muslims that fought in their respective colonial armies both French and British against the Nazis. Maybe you could rent this in your “research”
http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-Film/indigenes_4012.jsp
Also, NEVER NEVER treat the greatest bloodletting the world has ever seen which was much of the European experience of the 20th century to the same standards you now give Islam. The over-arching notion I see is that stuff like liberal democracy and “universal” human rights are the only legitimate off-spring of the West, but concepts like fascism and imperialism are simply ignored bastards. Not only that but often they are bastards you have the gall to so readily just displace upon Islam as in the idea you were pushing in the case of the Mufti, whose been trumpeted by every extreme zionist on the internet as a rationale to further subjugate the Palestinians.
Lastly, if you really believe this Barbary Pirate =Islam BS than you have no hope. Vince do you know what a Privateer was? Sir Francis Drake ring a bell? Privateer was a euphemism that Europeans used for their own respective pirates, whether they used them against each other or the Ottomans, Egyptians, etc. A practice that was employed off and on by european nation-states up and till the 19th century. In fact, Thomas Jefferson’s U.S. used privateer (read: pirate) forces in the American Revolutionary War to a very large extent as well. So seriously, get off this flimsy high horse you have constructed for yourself at the expense of Muslims.
Yeah Vince, try Googling the “Palestine Regiment” where Jews and Arabs fought side by side against the Third Reich.
For Buzz Kill to say that the Qur’an, Islam, and Muhammad have nothing to do with “being horrible to your fellow human beings and killing them,” that perspective is naive, deceitful, or both.
Dhimmi-dude
I am also tired of being nasty to people who insist on demonizing Islam so I will try patience.
I am a (or try to be) compassionate person and would not have chosen a religion that preached hate. I don’t need that in my life. How about you sir or ma’am?
You seem painfully ignorant of Islam and you choose to continue to be ignorant. You have probably come from Dhimmi watch or Jihad Watch or Genie Watch or whatever and you have a lot of investment in Islam being something evil.
Good for you.
If you think you have some information about Islam that I don’t have access to, I must tell you, you have your head soooooo far up your ass you can’t even see “Rubart” Spencer’s next angry screed coming so you know what to think and say (respectfully).
Clearly, hate has its own methods and process. Hate enmeshes itself in alibis and justifications, pretending to be something it clearly is not, like Islam or Dhimmi watchers.
You should be more concerned about the right-wing, xenophobic ideologies and puppet masters who have completely brainwashed you. The naivate and deception is yours, not mine.
I am sincere and completely confident in what I’m saying to you.
bye.
imam mark:
bro you are the laughiest imam i ever met. do you stand up at jummah and say “can i get an LOL”
oh its just so typical i have been dealing with islamophobes for ages this is nothing new to me their arguments are all the same rubbish but are easily refuted visit these websites
http://www.answering-christianity.com
http://www.muslim-defence.com
http://www.muslim-responses.com
http://www.islamic-awareness.org
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com
http://www.islamic-answers.com
http://www.muslim-answers.org
http://www.islamlife.com
http://www.submission.org
http://www.examinethetruth.com
http://www.answering-faithfreedom.org
http://www.religionofpeace.com
http://www.mostmerciful.com
hi every body here.
u people (the westerns) are just creating the animies for ur selves. because the behaviour which is shown by the western News Papsrs and Film makers it made the Muslims angry. and u people Know that Muslims can kill him self for Islam. however they are saprated among them selves but they are realy united for there religon. infact they are crazy about Islam.
Jessica wrote:
Nattuk wrote:
Thanks to both Jessica and Nattuk as the above reflects the point in my statement.
To BuzzKill and any others. Please allow me to elaborate:
First of all, I am not saying in any way that I agree with the premise of this film that Islam is inherently evil or violent. If I believed such a thing, then I would not be Muslim. I believe in and Islam of love and kindness to others (regardless of faith) and find these maniacs’ claims that Islam is not that to be offensive.
Being that I am not Christian, Jewish or Hindu or what have you, extremism amongst them quite frankly does not embarrass me. Of course there are extremists in their ranks, but that is not my fight. So talk of Christian, Hindu or Jewish extremists do not concern me when we are talking about cleaning up the cest pool within our own yard.
The point should not be lost: these psychopaths are using Islam to justify their bloodlust and to recruit others. This is a coordinated and wicked ideology and they are driven by an insatiable authoritarian drive for absolute power over all lives. There is no better custodian to clean up this ideological sewer than a clear , sane and balanced Muslim. We must take back what is rightfully ours instead of blowing it off as random acts of violence by people that just happen to be Muslim.
However if we all remain silent, under the pretense that this is some sort of random violence, then we allow these deranged creeps to speak for Islam each time they release their video clippings to the world. Triangulation and trying to appear to be righteously above the fray does not work. We just don’t live in a vacuum and the silence will be seen as approval. It may not be right or fair, but that is how it is.
Look at it this way. If someone from my family (God forbid) robbed a bank and announced relentlessly and constantly that he did it in the name of the Nelson family, what do you think the public would think if we all just decided to remain silent on the issue?
Which is a better answer:
1 - When asked we say “no comment”
2 - When asked, we say “he is out of his mind, he acted alone and we have NOTHING to do with this and do not appreciate him bringing us into his crap”
Finally, I cringe whenever I see senseless murders in the media, but I must admit that I get particularly angry when it is perpetrated by a black man. I know that bigots will use it against us (as some bigot tried to use the Eve Carson murder against me). In many cases when black politicians are caught in a corruption scandal their excuse is that “well white people do it”. That is not an excuse.
Anyway, it is my hope that we can all join hands in fighting against these mad men that claim to speak for us and our religion
I see the Muslims here don’t know how to read very well, and instead like to take what I said, dismiss its substance and then twist it as if I indicted every Muslim of acting the same way.
Lets review:
- It’s taken a long time for some of us to form our current opinion about the state of Islam today and how certain Muslims behave in light of current trends within Islam.
- Yes we all know that the vast majority of Muslims aren’t hostile yadda yadda yadda but there’s plenty of Muslims who consider themselves to be Muslims who profess to believe in Jihad.
- It’s because of the actions of some Muslims and we dont see any restraint being demanded by other Muslims.
So what I see here is that Muslims will not abide any examination of the actions of their co-religionists. Instead at the very mention of Jihadism , most of you instinctively seek to change the subject or to throw out the Islamophobe label.
Look how you reacted to my mentioning the Grand Mufti. You think it was better to dismiss everythign he did, and instead tell me that some other Arabs fought on the side of the British. Well that’s all well good but that doesn’t negate what the Grand Mufti did. You responded that by mentioning him I was somehow implying that “All Muslims” were just like him. Well noooo. I singled him out as an individual.
So what is it ? When someone generalizes about Muslims you all cry “We’re all not like that”… when someone cites the actions of ONE PERSON you all cry “We’re not all like that”. Well no one claimed all Muslims were like anything.
Then there’s the perception that I’m taking the extremists and imposing their view of Islam onto all Muslims. No… that’s why I qualified my statements the way I did.. to distinguish.
It would be nice to see more Muslims engage in an objective look at their extermist co-religionists instead of acting all indignant when a Non Muslim asks questions about them. They’re the ones giving your religion a washing in mud not me, their target.
Great response Tariq. You have expressed my sentiments.
Anyway, it is my hope that we can all join hands in fighting against these mad men that claim to speak for us and our religion
I will pass in joining hands people like Vince P, thanks all the same.
“I am a (or try to be) compassionate person and would not have chosen a religion that preached hate…you have your head soooooo far up your ass.”
Check.
Strange how the “right-wing, xenophobic ideologies and puppet masters who have completely brainwashed” me have also brainwashed so many Muslims into thinking there’s something (just something) about Islam, Muhammad, and the Qur’an that inspires them to believe in violence and subjugation against non-Muslims.
But you know, rather than keep trying to convince me about what an expert you are on Islam, you might want to put some of that expertise to some use and let yourself recognize that Jihadists and Islamists are indeed using Islam and the Qur’an and Muhammad’s example to justify their cause, and they do it quite convincingly. If you can’t even acknowledge that, how can you convince them and more importantly other Muslims to adopt and promote a more peaceful interpretation?
Ali Eteraz on Using the Qu’ran for Criminal and Illegitmate ends (As if you don’t when you abuse women).
Ali Eteraz, the kind of liberal Muslim who gives both liberalism and Islam a bad name. The Quran is the source of patriarchy, it justifies in your mysoginist mind your well know disgusting attitude to women. No matter how enlightened you might think you are, you were raised a Muslim, which means, obviously, that your brain functions in a certain way, especially where women are concerned. I have just read a comprehensive psycho-sexual study of the male Muslim mind, like all men- white, black, western etc- it’s a dark journey into the human psyche, but your mind in particular was forged by patriarchy. To me, and to other Muslim apostate women, there is no difference between you and some whabbi sheikh, a shia mullah, a red neck white trash American with his beer can- you are ALL suffering from the same disease. Now you said that those who use Islam for illegitimate and criminal ends ought to be punished? YOU USE THE QU’RAN TO ATTACK WOMEN, ESPECIALLY WOMEN LIKE ME, you use it to justify rape, sexual intimidation and you yourself by all accounts seem to be on some sort of ’sexual jihad’- justifiable under your dirty religion, cos you are a man, and you can do what you want, afterall, according to your estimation, women only exist to satisfy your lusts. Listen, speaking solely for myself, an apostate Pakistani woman, it is YOU who use the Qu’ran for illegitimate and criminal ends, including honor killings, gang rape, getting your cock out in public whenever you feel like, touching women, pinching girls, following women in cars- this is YOUR DISGUSTING SYSTEM. Is this because the Qu’ran, like biblical and Jewish patriarchal trash is a criminal document, basically, in the hands of people like YOU- a sexual perverts charter?
I feel totally free to use the Qu’ran however I like, if that’s the only message you understand, then I am willing to spit on it and burn it. “Oh, how can she say that?” It’s very simple, I escaped from Islam and from sleaze sexually promiscuos Muslim men like you- and I can say, wear, do- whatever I want. I just don’t care what you think, really, and you’re right, you need to have stronger medicine cos women all over the Umma have got to understand only by trashing the Qu’ran and everything you value and consider muqadas, can we create the right climate to smash patriarchy- including it’s sex pervert agents- LIKE YOU.
apostatepakistanigirl.wordpress.com
…idiots recognize one another…
This was the best :)
Imam Mark,
You’re joking right (LOL). That was sarcasm right (LOL). Like sooo duh.
But you know, rather than keep trying to convince me about what an expert you are on Islam, you might want to put some of that expertise to some use and let yourself recognize that Jihadists and Islamists are indeed using Islam and the Qur’an and Muhammad’s example to justify their cause, and they do it quite convincingly. If you can’t even acknowledge that, how can you convince them and more importantly other Muslims to adopt and promote a more peaceful interpretation?
Not my problem. Not my fight. There is no Muslim “team” where I have to pull “my” ranks together. That is an illusion. The same illusion that makes some in the Middle East, Europe, India, Asia and probably Antarctica HATE Americans for the death and destruction they choose to do.
True. I am an American. I did not vote for Bush. I did not support his way, usurpation of authority and tax dollars, etc. Would you say I am responsible for that? I wonder.
The cycles of violence perpetuate over millenia because of this very subtle issue. The sons inherit the sins of the father and the misunderstandings go on.
I have no accountability to the world because of the actions of other Muslims. People say were associated. I say we are not. If we are practicing peace-loving submitted to God individuals, then we are ALL following the same path. The Qur’an said Jesus said he was a “Muslim.” It only means submitted to God. That is general.
“Muslim” in the Tariq Nelson sense is a socio-political Identity that I want nothing to do with. It is a scam. That makes me personally accountable for every asshole that callls himself Muslim and acts in direct contradiction to his empty moniker.
Why should I atone for him?
Muslims only have the responsibility to make the teaching of Islam clear and do their best not to allow hate-mongers and xenophobes twist the teachings into something that fits the war plan of the day.
That’s it.
Yes, the Qur’an implies that it is okay to take my cock out in public, touch women, pinch girls, and to follow women in cars (or maybe it was on camels then; I’m not really sure). Gasp, and wait, the Bible and the Talmud say the same thing!
And yes, Ali Eteraz, myself, and every single other Muslim male who frequent this site and every other Islam-oriented site all abuse women, and abuse types like you especially, not just for being a woman, but for being an “apostate” Pakistani shawwwwty. We’re sitting here salivating at work, at school, or at home, or even on the subway on our iPhones, looking at your avatar picture, our right hands on our keyboards and the left one in our pants…and it’s totally cool for us to do, because as Muslims, it’s okay to touch ourselves in public. Ah, ah…sorry I just skeeted all over my screen looking at your avatar picture.
Congratulations, you’re a generic feminist. And the best thing you have going for you is, even though you have nothing particularly new or important to say, people will love every word you have to say because you attached that “apostate” label in front of your name. Good going, we tip our hats and kufis to you.
Yea, the only thing I’m perplexed by is why her avatar picture is of the indian harvard girl who got caught plagiarizing.
Vince
Are you apostatepakistanigirl ???
Who knows, maybe it’s the same girl. After being disgraced at Harvard, she has been reduced to blogging from an apostate-Pakistani standpoint.
Musllim reviews anti-Islamic “Fitna, the Movie”
All hype and no play.
Buzz Kill,
Sure, it’s completely fair for you to say you’re not responsible for other Muslims.
But then you say, “Muslims only have the responsibility to make the teaching of Islam clear.”
For whom? For other Muslims? But I thought you’re not responsible for them? Which is it?
So I’ll come back to the point. Islamists and Jihadists belive they are making the teaching of Islam clear. They have lots of evidence and history to back them up, citing the Qur’an and the Sunnah and Islam over and over as their justification. They have huge and increasing support around the world. So how again, back to your original point, is it that the violence they commit and support has nothing to do with Islam, the Qur’an, or Muhammad?
“I have just read a comprehensive psycho-sexual study of the male Muslim mind”
Oh, indeed. Commissioned by Her Majesty’s Royal Society for the Study of Badly Behaved Races Subjugated by the Glorious Empire?
You’re behind the times. That bandwagon left about 100 years ago. You might try the postmoderns.
http://tryworks.org/blog/2008/03/27/and-since-we-were-discussing-the-barely-literate/#respond
if i may just butt in to the boulder and surroundings battle …. to offer yall a break, … come zoom out with me and check the reflections that span a liveleak hit (2 million views in 2 hours), endlessnes as only a stretch of sand can end less .. and green thumbaloony land.
A fairly complete account (including pics of main characters on both sides) of the Little Big Horn battle in the 1870ies, fought in a vain attempt to stop gold diggers) is here: http://www.footnote.com/page/1209/the-battle-of-little-big-horn a page that does not show up till the 7th images.google page searching for Crazy Horse. On the way there an old and consistently informative site has the most info: crystalinks (mandala medicine wheel, geometry connection).
Searching for Dee Brown (whose ‘the american west’ had tears burning behind my eyelids and got me going on this quest) is even worse, the first page is taken by a basket baller, then this, from what i can tell, pleasantly conscientious and accurate chronicler of an extremely ugly part of colonial imperial christian expansionist missionary and last but not least, genocidal history shows up here: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk FICTION??????????
Dee Brown
Born February 28, 1908
Alberta, Louisiana
Died December 12, 2002 (aged 94)
Little Rock, Arkansas
(via the encyclopedia of Arkansas)
joep, cartoonist at nova.tv
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=artikelen.details&achtergrond_id=10319&CFID=39223633&CFTOKEN=38827279
shows Muhammed’s ‘lontje’ (fuse) transmuting baser emotions - of ‘diep gezonken’ (degenerated) Dutch yet stacked in the hi-rises typical of mass-manipulooters’ - in Drew Hempel type fashion rather than exploding, .. and yet though agreeing with and following the climax of the Wilders collage he double deals with him somewhat, as Geertje initiates the ‘hele hoop gedonder’ (irritation) with footstamping (placing near misses next to a book on the ground), his neighbour, an imam, as the next carrier of ‘burengerucht’ (disturbance) passes it to our prime minister who escalates the din, a zoom out reveals the whole lot to be contained in the ‘fuse’.
Wilders used the most hated cartoon (of his fellow threatenee, without permission) showing M as a suicide bomber BUT turning it into a device that would somehow bring thunder (perhaps underhandedly intending to council moslims to stay in their deserts and showing confidence in Muhammed’s ability to catalyze impregnation of his deserts with rain (thunder and lighting rather than exploding) as long as he stays there and focuses on the task of applying the dutch touch, the green thumb (to GROw her sugar plumb).
I wonder wether Muslims view their prophet Mohammed as a kind of Sitting Bull for instance (since the latter did a sundance to receive intimations about how the envisioned battle would go (well … and it did but retaliation and then more broken treaties followed all too soon)), to the point of self maiming, blood draining, which itself resembles the muslimlike ((sunni or shia?)) flagellation of sorts Wilders has chosen to honour in his selection of fears for the future of Holland).
Not that i think this view justified but Islamists taking it is understandable as hell .. ..and still very popular, that is their reasons for resorting to violence are as religiously adhered to as their means are blasphemously violated.
Crazy Horse, his and the bands around him applied the range of tactics (initial negociations, gentle warnings, nudges, pushes, outbursts of anger, provocative prods, clabberings with coupsticks and finally guerrilla) from (conservative) motives everybody likes to steal and then sully (with the improving means to perpetrate mass murder even then a much more rapidly firing gun suprised the indians and proved quite decisive), that is to say, unleash (’achieve’) a horrifying generations-spanning string, strung cable, strained rope and whirlwind of trauma and disaster.
The big difference of course is that Islam went on to be a global force to be reckoned with whereas the native American ways suffered genocide and must make do with an o so faint reflection in the indigenous rights movement, reservations, disputed tenure (Ward Churchill) and splinter groups like the rainbow family.
———————-
The long view is taboo:
Hold collectively responsible and accountable.
—————————————————
The shortsighted one tries but mostly pretends to be more accurately specific, on target and hence, just:
Search out and punish culprits perpetrators and criminals on the one hand, hold up beneficiaries, initiators and inventors as shining examples deserving every bit of their singling themselves out in matters of reward and wages, so much even that the personhood status is, in jealous imitation?) granted big generations spanning institutions that have agency to stay inviolate, sovereign, etcetera.
Either way, the most violent actions sort the most ef- and affect, they shape and set the pattern for slews of mere follower rather than initiators, the western ways of banishing troublesome elements morhped into colonialism and imperialism with mercenary industries of supressing spreading non-racist slavery.
That’s right Geert, the left is as blind to Bolshevism as it is to Islam, even to this day, and yet, so are you, with your biased take on semitism. The Bolshies meanwhile morphed to zionism but are still quite recognizable since traceable, they even concentrated and consolidated if anything.
ps: read my first Crews on your recommendation but more bycause i had one of them o so infrequent letters from an old acquaintance who gets a kick out of dead weights http://cleandraws.com on the day i saw ‘body’ for 25 eurocents
And APG, on a less sarcastic note–one of the most useful things I ever learned was taught to me by a Christian minister who had a deep academic and personal respect for Buddhism, which he taught at the university I attended. None of us in the class knew he was a Christian (much less a minister), so we, being good countercultural hipsters, trashed Christianity in a religious comparison paper he assigned us. When he handed our papers back, he said this: “You know, guys, you don’t have to trash one idea in order to lift up another.”
Words to live by.
Harvard? Sorry, I got half educated at the Pakistani International School in Khobar, after getting home to the UK after 8 miserable years living under YOUR system in Saudi Arabia where I was routinely accosted, insulted, hissed out, even though I wore an abaya and a niqab until I had a mental breakdown and got so sick I couldn’t even go to school- then, I got myself to nightschool. Harvard, sorry, it was studying Pakistan Studies Curriculum to IGCSE level, and I can not go to university cos I am still in recovery after all what I suffered cos of YOU. The extreme repression I suffered developed into a fear of men, ALL men, and I can not cope on me own to go to university. I hope you all happy what you done, but hey, rather than kill myself like I tried in 2006, I started to understand through RAD FEM that why should I die- better to kill patriarchy, cos that’s the source of all our suffering- even you, you are sexually frustarted muslim men reduced to the level of dogs. By the way, the takfirirs, hezb al tahrir, lashkar-toybah and of course Jamiaat Islam and MMA- you are, as Islamists and Jihadists, absolutely following the Qu’ran, the hadiths, and the Sunnah, all the bad stuff you are doing to women esprecially- it’s inherent, from the Makkan suras. Now cos of the way our muslim soceities function, from child rearing practices, to schooling, to your little boys love of paternal affection- the whole pattern of your socialization, it is impossible for you not to be SEXUALLY PERVERTED as men. The radical feminist solution would be thus- as murthad fitri, as someone with no fucking Taqwah, no imam and no diin, you got no contact with me, this is in fiqh, similarly, as a radical feminist- I need no contact with YOU. I think you got another 500 years, but understand this, every aya, every sura, all namaz, it is a WASTE OF TIME and you know it too, you are only doing this to maintain an evil system where you can control women. The problem is, no matter how much you can control, it’s never going to work, Muslim men will cut your throats just to have five minutes with your wives, is that the jamaat, is this what being Muslim is? And as I know very well, you can oppress, you can intimidate, but so long as the nafs is FREE, you never ever going to really win cos I just used to say whatever I was coerced and threatened into saying, even in Makkah on me second umrah- I knew all of it was total lies and nonsense and fairy stories and then when I got touched up near the Great Mosque I knew- these men don’t believe this trash. I became an apostate one year later, in me head, like a sudden flash came, I was standing outside the Prophet’s Mosque with me broken arm after i got pushed over in Makkah and I realized, “This is the stupidity and ignorance of men.” So you are still living in the jahliyyah, it never ended, but me, no, I am far from Muslims, live safely, I got full freedom, I am happy person, only you still got one thing over me, cos the person I love, that person is sent to NWFP against that person’s will, forced into marriage and got that person’s UK passport confiscated and that person can not come home. So you got me on that, for sure, but that person is strong, very strong, and will teach future children Islam is lies, and to be murthad like us, and one day to fight back also. All this suffering, hell, misery, pain, agony, just cos you WANT TO CONTROL WOMEN, cos you only got the stick, nothing else.
Me story is well know, not only me in this position, come to Uk Council of Ex Muslims or Islam Watch and you going to see many more persons now ok - cos YOU can’t hurt us anymore.
Eeeewwww. Anti Dhimmi! You got me in an impossible dilemma and hung me out to dry by my own words…..hahaha.
Islam really actually needs none of my support. It is a religious scripture revealed by God to the Holy Prophet Mohammad.
I am not from Amway.
As you can see, even other Muslims disagree with my POV. I just happen to think I am obviously right. There are other interpretations that makes us all one Umma and talk of mutual support.
I see that support as clarifying the issues to the general population which is precisely what I am doing now and do in my non-profit work. Educate myself and then educate others, in the general sense. Anyone interested.
Unfortunately, most people want to fight, not learn. I have tried to keep an open mind and stay objective about Islam being an evil influence to others. It does not pan out.
What I see in the jihadis and what I see in your ideas is nothing but politics twisting Islam one way or the other.
If both parties wanted to be honest, they would drop Islam and get the real issues:
“I resent American influence in my country”
“I need to disarm you for Israelis to feel more secure and I need to control your oil output”
Both messages, as a purely hypothetical example, are empowered and shrouded by adding Islam into the equation. It allows the jihadis to raise a banner for recruitment. It gives the West an excuse for attacking and seizing assets.
Etc. Etc.
So how again, back to your original point, is it that the violence they commit and support has nothing to do with Islam, the Qur’an, or Muhammad?
Is every American accountable for Abu Graib? If yes, I think you generalize too far. If not, apply the same logic to Muslims.
You think the Quran and Hadith mandate jihadi behavior, does the constition mandate the guards at abu graib? And so on.
Actually, it is all pretty obvious if you don’t choose to wear political blinders. Every verse of Quran, every saying of the Holy Prophet, every core teaching of Islam has an alternative explanation that would condemn the jihadis when put in the proper context.
A determined sick mind can, and probably has, twisted John Lennon songs, catcher in the rye, or a halequin romance novel to justify killing.
The real solution to terrorism will come from the West and it will not be in defeating terrorists, which will never be accomplished. It will come from weakening of Western imperialism which is something Bush has unwittingly begun.
sorry it’s a radical feminist study by a highly respected psychoanalyst trying to understand the utter sexual and therefore social dysfunctionality in our societies. Rad Fem has got nothing to do with the British, or American governments, cos both are secretly supporting YOU. You think we fooled, no way, British and American spies are supporting Jamiaat Islami against General Musharraf, rad fem is anti imperialist, Islam is imperialist patriarchal, afterall, your Qu’ran suggests you should, as men, have sex with slaves, which all arabs do when they gang rape Indian and Pakisani maids. You are imperialist, sick, evil and you got to know, with radical feminism now getting translations to Urdu, more and more Pakistani girls are WAKING UP.
nuttack, you abuse women who ae hijabi, you abuse women who are niqabi, you will abuse any woman you can, if you can, when you can, all of which is justifiable in your mind because women are dirty, either morally or spiritually- exist only to please you, and are simply sex on legs. You were abusing Pakistani girls as they tried to dodge you and get home safely, none of them were apostates, not one. But they were trapped- and like all abusers, you will specialize in abusing the WEAK. The niqab is no defence anymore, you don’t respect it, do you? Of course, not, you have objectified and fetishized every normal aspect of womanhood, even a dying woman begging for water is a sexual object to you. Do you know what this makes you?
More and more Pakistani women are switching from Islam to rad fem, nor is it generic, we adopted the third feminist position. Sorry, but rad fem will transform America- and it will transform the Umma. And if you are starting to think about having a dig at my sexuality, cos I got long experience of fighting you guys, it’s not your business, suffice to say, women like me are negated in Islam and got no right to exist, when we do, when we are found out- WE SHOW UP DEAD.
apostatepakistanigirl
Your issues are real, but you seem to have chosen an arbitrary site to attack. I think the blogger and most of the people here support much of what you are saying (if you backed off a bit).
If you want to vent, how about finding a traditionalist site or some other site that strongly supports a status quo Islamic position. This ain’t that site.
Or you could go to Pajamas Media sites like the Sanity Squad who will gladly take you up and clone you with Ayaan Hirsi and Ann Coulter to make some kind of hybrid iconic robo-fem.
Whatever you choose to do, good luck and try not to be another slactivist who shouts and accomplishes nothing.
aww poor thing, apostatepakigirl has been through a lot … be easy on her guys …
nevertheless, ignorance doesn’t need an explanation …
apostatepakistanigirl , stop making Buzz Kill’s religion look bad. That’s more important than the people it damages.
That’s what I am talking about Vince!
Man, I couldn’t get a better response from you if you were a wind-up.
Yes, exploit the person’s pain for your little cause.
Well-done.
8,000 women in Rawalapindi-Islamabad area burnt to ashes.
Acid attacks justified under Karakhouri.
Child marriages.
40,000 Pakistani girls deported to Pakistan from UK against their will.
Rape gangs roaming the major cities of the Umma from Baghdad to Lahore.
Tens of thousands of Pakistani girls trafficked into sex tourism in the Gulf.
Pakistani maids routinely raped by Arab kafils and their sons.
Women who love women under Islam beaten, torn apart, forced into marriage.
Sorry, this is what makes their religion look bad, women don’t do these things- they do. THIS IS ISLAM, THIS IS WHY WE FIGHT FOR RAD FEM.
And why did I come here, very simple, you can not be a LIBERAL Nazi.
apostatepakistanigirl.wordpress.com
another, i not only against Islam, me mum who gave me life, she is Muslima, I love me mum, I love her to pieces, it’s bad things I AM AGAINST, it’s not hatred that is blind, it’s against evil stuff, cruel stuff and many many Muslims- they show me kindness, I aginst if you are Nazis, KKK, Christian groups- all, I against all pain and misery, so it’s not case that I just against Muslims, no way, if Muslims can stop to hurt woman and girls- WE WILL NOT BECOME MURTHAD EVEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
apg:
welcome. i am not a feminist but i do consider feminism part of humanism.
feel free to express your feelings, you’re not going to get judged.
An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are “asking for rape.” Apparently, he’s not the only one thinking this way. “It is not as wrong raping a Swedish girl as raping an Arab girl,” says Hamid. “The Swedish girl gets a lot of help afterwards, and she had probably f***ed before, anyway. But the Arab girl will get problems with her family. For her, being raped is a source of shame. It is important that she retains her virginity until she marries. It is far too easy to get a Swedish whore…… girl, I mean;” says Hamid, and laughs over his own choice of words. “Many immigrant boys have Swedish girlfriends when they are teenagers. But when they get married, they get a proper woman from their own culture who has never been with a boy. That’s what I am going to do. I don’t have too much respect for Swedish girls. I guess you can say they get f***ed to pieces.”
ok, last and final, if there is Allah, if, let us suppose, if, then Allah is raii (glorious), with hikma (wisdom), ruler of the universe, maliki yawm ad diin, and on that day, cos Allah, if exists, if exists I telling, then got more power than any insaan can imagine. So you think Allah if exists can not see what I trying to do- which is save muslima sisters from shame, insult and oppression. I hope Allah exists, this is me dream, I hope hope hope Allah is REALLY story cos then all those who done one atom of good and those who done one atom of bad- it is getting measured. And if you know me well, then you know that me soul is in submission- I against the failings of man, not the glory of Allah, so you destroying the religion of Muslim girls when you abuse, sexually insult and sexually intimidate. But I think you just laughing when you read this cos you are not mu’imiiin and not really believers, it’s just like a game you playing to cheat and oppress women. So i hope there is Allah cos then those who made a sport of religion-they will be finding that there is no more games.
Ok, bye bye, I not come here again.
I dunno Akhmad, I don’t sympathize as much as I find her to be really emo. Akin to those teen/adolescent screeds about how religion is the source of all and every evil (along with their parents), and furthermore it is implied (or in this case explicitly stated) how we must be so morally and intellectually inferior to them for not agreeing to their every conclusion.
very moving Vince.
Put one of these on top of these statements for iimpact.
Ali Eteraz, all what i saying, it is not against you, no way, just I got told that what you was doing was AGAINST apostates of Islam, but when I came here in person, i found this is not the case. So I think nothing i say is against you, ok, I just came here with a fixed image, but really story, it’s different from what you actually doing maybe, anyhow. I apologise cos you gave me chance to speak.
bye bye,
APG probably got dumped by a gora. What else is there to explain?
Muslamism Spells End of the West
http://www.jewcy.com/post/musamlism_may_spell_death_west
I hope you will also check out the heinous pictures.
I wonder what Muslims have been doing to the Buddhists in Tibet to provoke the monks to burn down a mosque. America’s fault I’m sure.
So is there anywhere in the world where Muslims are and conflict isn’t?
”
Tibetan Rioters Burn Down Mosque
LHASA, China (AP) - Police closed off Lhasa’s Muslim quarter on Friday, two weeks after Tibetan rioters burned down the city’s mosque during the largest anti- Chinese protests in nearly two decades.
Officers blockaded streets into the area, allowing in only area residents and worshippers observing the Muslim day of prayer. A heavy security presence continued in other parts of Lhasa’s old city as cleanup crews waded through the destruction inflicted when days of initially peaceful protests turned deadly on March 14.
It was not clear why the area was cordoned off, although rioters had targeted businesses belonging to Chinese Muslim migrants known as Hui, who control much of Lhasa’s commerce.
The protests were the most-sustained challenge to China’s rule in the Himalayan region since 1989.”
Vince, are you fucking retarded? The Tibetans were reacting to anything Chinese, and it so happens that the Hui were dominant in commerce.
Tibetan Muslims are a different folk, and they are well respected among Tibetans.
Spare us your bigotry you fudgepacker.
Before anyone